CLA Chief Legal Advisor, Christopher Price, talks about coastal access on BBC 2’s The Daily Politics show

Please follow the link to view the interview:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/the_daily_politics/

Please find below the transcript of today's BBC Politics Show featuring interviews with the CLA, Kitty Ussher MP and Alan Duncan, Shadow Secretary of State for BERR

COASTAL ACCESS
Programme       :  THE DAILY POLITICS
Station         :  BBC 2
Date            :  11/06/2008
Time            :  12:49
Duration        :  06 MINUTES 30 SECONDS

EDDIE MAIR:  Presenter

MPs are this week looking at Government plans to establish a national footpath along England's coastline.  At the moment around half England's coast is not open to the public, while in Scotland walkers have had the right to roam since 2005.  The current legislation doesn't affect Wales.

The plan has angered landowners who worry that the Government body which will oversee the project, Natural England, could force the path through their gardens and estates.  We'll look at that in a bit more detail in just a moment.  First, though, Anne Alexander has been to the Devon coast to find out what all the fuss is about.

ANNE ALEXANDER:  Reporter

With views like this it's no wonder that access to England's coastline is a fiercely guarded prize.  Currently the public can use about three-quarters of it, but Government plans being debated this week could see the creation of a coastal path, allowing public access to the whole of England's coasts.  Natural England, the body charged with putting the scheme into action, now says the rights of private landowners can't be guaranteed.

I'm on the South West coast path nearly Budleigh Salterton.  Now most of the land by the sea around here is already open to the public; but, if the law changes, critics fear that walkers may have access to people's private gardens.

Landowners are furious.  John Varley is the Director of Clinton Devon Estates, he says that the new plans are ill thought out and unfair.

JOHN VARLEY:  Director, Clinton Devon Estates

It's not just about large estates and... and landowners and farmers, it's about people who just happened to have bought a house by the sea.  What this policy that seems to be emerging from Natural England and the Government is that people's gardens, farmers' land, conservation sites, can all be trampled over and taken... taken possession of by... by the Government without any compensation at all.

ANNE ALEXANDER:

But Natural England say that hikers are forced up to 15 miles inland on some coasts and that changes would affect large estates not small gardens, and opinion is split even amongst walkers.

UNNAMED WOMAN #1:

I think everyone's got a right to roam the country.  I think everyone's got freedom to... to walk the coastline even if it is through somebody else's garden. 

UNNAMED WOMAN #2:

As a walker it would be lovely to be able to walk all round.  But on the other hand, I... I feel sorry for people that it will affect.

UNNAMED MAN 1:

We're so well off for paths everywhere.  I don't think it's ever been a problem for us.

ANNE ALEXANDER:

The Government still has a battle on its hands to get the changes through, and many landowners will be hoping that it chooses to take a different path.

EDDIE MAIR:

Anne Alexander reporting.  Well joining us is Christopher Price from the Country Land and Business Association.  What's your gripe with this?

CHRISTOPHER PRICE:  Public Law Adviser, Country Land and Business Association

Well I think the important point is – and it didn't really come through in the picture... of the film – is that we're not adverse to access per se.  Seventy per cent of the English coast already has a footpath around it and many rural businesses, coastal businesses, depend on it for tourism, et cetera.  Our concern is over the way this particular initiative is being seen through.  As we heard in the film, it doesn't seem to have been properly thought through, it gives incredibly strong powers to Natural England to do, in effect, whatever they want to do and we're just told to trust them.  And when we were originally told by the Minister that it wouldn't affect private gardens and parks, and then three days ago we're told out of the blue it now will affect private gardens and parks, it makes trust very difficult.

EDDIE MAIR:

Well it's not that it will affect, it's... it's that it might affect, isn't it?

CHRISTOPHER PRICE:

Well yes, but if you're... there are, we understand, 5,000 private gardens that stand to be affected, and if you're one of those householders then it could be very worrying.

EDDIE MAIR:

But won't all of that be dealt with on an individual basis?  People will have a chance to make their case.

CHRISTOPHER PRICE:

They have... Natural England are obliged to consult, there is no right of appeal on this.  So if Natural England decide the path is going through your garden, it goes through your garden.

EDDIE MAIR:

When you think of that 70 per cent figure, is there any realistic reason why it couldn't be a 100 per cent?  And shouldn't be?

CHRISTOPHER PRICE:

Well the... the most obvious reasons are it would involve going through ports and military establishments so it's never going to be a 100 per cent.  We don't know quite how much of the remaining 30 per cent it will include.  But there all... already existing ways in which the Secretary of State could get the remaining percentage brought through.  There's already powers under the Highways Acts, it could be done through agri-environment schemes where the Government pays the landowner for the right to do it.  This is being done on the cheap and in a very ill-considered way.

EDDIE MAIR:

So this is about the... the method rather than the goal?

CHRISTOPHER PRICE:

It's about the way it's being done. Landowners aren't averse to access per se, as I say, many... many of them will think it's a good thing.  It's the rather ill thought through, on the cheap way this is being done.

EDDIE MAIR:

Kitty Ussher, ill thought through, on the cheap?

KITTY USSHER MP:  Treasury Minister

I don't think it's ill thought through at all.  This was a manifesto commitment for the...

EDDIE MAIR:

(interrupting)  That doesn't mean to say it's been well thought through.

KITTY USSHER MP:

It means that it's been thought through for some time, shall I say.  And what we've just published is a draft Bill which will be subject to pre-legislative scrutiny in both Houses of Parliament which will then lead to legislation in due course.  So we're at the very beginning of the debate here and I think we have to be sensible about it, we don't actually know how it's going to work in... in... in practice.  And, you know, I'm not the Minister responsible but I would say that there is a difference between someone's backyard, with everyone looking out their back window and seeing scores of people coming through, and perhaps an extremely large estate where there's a footpath at the end of it.  So I think we need to be sort of not scaremongering here and have a proper debate about... about... about what's required.

CHRISTOPHER PRICE:

There is a difference, but  the... a draft Bill as originally issued said gardens would be excluded.  We're now told by the Minister they will not be excluded.  I think we all know what a gardener wants.

ALAN DUNCAN MP: Shadow Secretary of State for Business, Enterprise and Regulatory Reform

(interrupting)   But... but... but you know the Minister's saying...

EDDIE MAIR:

What would the Conservatives do Alan?

ALAN DUNCAN MP:

Well the Minister's saying she doesn't know how this is going to work and I think, you know, that is the problem...

EDDIE MAIR:

Well it's a draft Bill.

ALAN DUNCAN MP:

Yeah, but a draft Bill should be pretty well the Bill you want.  I mean it's a good thing...

KITTY USSHER MP:

A draft Bill is out for consultation.

ALAN DUNCAN MP:

It's a good thing that we have pre-legislative scrutiny and that kind of stuff, that's an improvement over the last few years.  But then the... the way we make law in general is... is disgraceful in Parliament at the moment.  Parliament's a failing institution when it comes to how we make law.  But though on this case, it's applying a principle – sounds great, nice little gesture to stick in the manifesto – and it's applying a uniform principle across the land which is privately owned by individuals.  And that is where injustice creeps in.  Gordon Brown has no understanding of how a law of this sort can give rise to injustice.

EDDIE MAIR:

Christopher Price, I'll give you the last word on this one.

CHRISTOPHER PRICE:

If I can come back on the manifesto point.  Your manifesto commitment was to improve access. Now we think that there are... we in the CLA think there are very good arguments for, say, having more car parks, for improving public transport to the coast, for having someone responsible for picking up the litter – things that would all go towards increasing sort of recreational experience of the coastline.  Now I can't see why you don't do that rather than go and spend money on this much more ideological thing that you're... you've come up with.

EDDIE MAIR:

All right, thank you very much for that Christopher, good to see you.  And we'll hear more about that I'm sure.

GEETA GURU-MURTHY: Presenter

Thanks Eddie.